In a world often obsessed with fleeting trends and superficial pursuits, Nick Offerman stands out as a beacon of grounded wisdom and genuine craftsmanship. While widely recognized for his acting roles, particularly as the iconic Ron Swanson in Parks and Recreation, Offerman’s true passions lie deeper, rooted in the tangible world of woodworking and a profound respect for time-honored values. This interview, originally transcribed by Alletta Cooper and featured on “On Being” with Krista Tippett, delves into the heart of Offerman’s philosophy, exploring his journey from a simple upbringing to a multifaceted career where serving as a craftsman is as vital as serving in the role of an actor.
This exploration reveals how Offerman’s dedication to working with his hands is not just a hobby, but a fundamental aspect of his spirituality and ethical framework. It’s a testament to the idea that true fulfillment comes not just from what we do, but how we do it, and the values we embody in our work. This article expands on the original interview, providing a richer understanding of Offerman’s insights and making it more accessible and engaging for a broader audience interested in purpose-driven work and meaningful living.
Nick Offerman embodies a blend of ruggedness and thoughtfulness.
Delving into the Roots of Value
Krista Tippett begins by acknowledging Offerman’s diverse roles and interests, setting the stage to uncover the less-publicized aspects of his life. While playfully referencing his marriage to Megan Mullally and his well-known persona, Tippett steers the conversation towards the core of Offerman’s values. She reframes the typical question about religious upbringing, instead probing into the foundational impulses that shape his expansive spirituality and ethical compass.
Offerman candidly admits that traditional Western spirituality didn’t resonate with him in his youth. He found solace and meaning not in dogma, but in the natural world and the honest labor he experienced growing up in rural Illinois. He describes his upbringing on a three-acre homestead as the true wellspring of his values. His family’s agricultural background instilled in him a deep appreciation for the outdoors and the satisfaction of working with his hands. Whether it was farm work, gardening, or household chores, these experiences were his formative spiritual education. Looking back, he recognizes these simple, honest labors as the “holy” ground where his values took root. This early immersion in practical work laid the foundation for his lifelong pursuit of craftsmanship and his understanding of serving as a contributing member of a community.
The Enduring Allure of Craftsmanship
The conversation naturally progresses to Offerman’s enduring passion for woodworking. Tippett notes that woodworking seems almost as integral to his identity as acting, highlighting his early experiences with tools and manual labor. Offerman confirms this, stating that he “gravitated” towards these activities from a young age. He recounts learning practical skills alongside his family, from mechanics to carpentry, participating in tasks like planting trees, gardening, and building. He humorously mentions mastering the art of hammering a nail with a single attempt, showcasing the practical, hands-on nature of his upbringing. This early exposure to craftsmanship was not just about acquiring skills; it was about understanding the value of tangible creation and serving as a capable and contributing individual.
Offerman’s Woodshop is a testament to his dedication to handcraft.
Even as he pursued acting, woodworking remained a constant thread in Offerman’s life. He worked as a master carpenter in Chicago’s theater scene and continued carpentry work in Los Angeles between acting gigs. He reveals that for much of his twenties, carpentry was his primary source of income, with acting as a slowly developing career. He humorously contrasts the sporadic but lucrative paychecks from acting with the consistent, grounding work of “swinging a hammer.” This period underscores how woodworking was not just a fallback, but a deeply ingrained part of his work ethic and identity, representing a consistent way of serving as a provider and creator.
The Zen of Woodworking and the Student’s Mindset
Tippett then brings up Shozo Sato, Offerman’s Kabuki theater teacher, highlighting his significant influence on Offerman’s life, particularly in connecting him to woodworking as a discipline. Offerman credits a friend for introducing him to Sato’s Kabuki theater class in college, an experience that profoundly shaped his perspective. He describes how his practical skills made him valuable to Sato, leading to opportunities to tour internationally and work closely with his sensei.
Sato imparted valuable life lessons, encapsulated in the Zen kōan, “always maintain the attitude of a student.” Initially, Offerman found this advice simplistic, but over time, its depth unfolded. He explains that this principle signifies recognizing human fallibility and embracing lifelong learning. This continuous learning process, he realized, leads to joy and a sense of purpose. Whether it’s mastering new woodworking techniques, improving personal relationships, or simply reading more books, the student’s mindset fosters constant growth and engagement. This philosophy extends to his approach to work, where serving as a student of his craft is an ongoing and enriching process.
Offerman eloquently expands on this lesson from his book, Paddle Your Own Canoe, emphasizing that ceasing to learn leads to bitterness and stagnation. He contrasts this with the fulfilling life that comes from having projects and objectives, regardless of age. This continuous pursuit of improvement allows for a sense of accomplishment and peaceful contentment. He directly connects this lesson to his woodworking discipline, calling it “one of the greatest joys of my life.” This joy is not just in the finished product but in the ongoing process of learning, problem-solving, and serving as a dedicated craftsman.
The Call to Create and Resist Consumerism
Tippett further explores the connection between woodworking and life lessons, noting Offerman’s encouragement for audiences to engage in handcraft. Offerman’s response brings Wendell Berry into the conversation, a figure he deeply admires and considers another significant teacher. He jokes about his self-imposed record for avoiding mentioning Berry, highlighting the agrarian writer’s profound influence on his thinking.
Offerman emphasizes the value he found in discovering his “organic vocation” – woodworking. He sees it as a gift, a way to use his abilities to create something of value for others. He believes everyone possesses such gifts, a capacity to create with their bodies. He extends this beyond tangible crafts to encompass diverse skills like child-rearing or even the simple act of offering comfort. This belief in inherent human capability stands in stark contrast to the consumerist ethos that he critiques.
He argues that industrial consumerism promotes the idea of ignoring our bodies and purchasing satisfaction instead of creating it. He sees this as fundamentally flawed, urging a return to valuing creation over consumption. Woodworking, in this context, becomes a form of resistance, a tangible way of serving as a creator and pushing back against a culture of passive consumption.
Wendell Berry’s agrarian philosophy deeply resonates with Offerman.
The Joy of Puzzles and Engaged Living
Tippett connects woodworking to the coordination of mind and body, quoting Wendell Berry’s line, “that the mind that is not baffled is not employed.” She highlights Offerman’s appreciation for the puzzles inherent in woodworking and how they provide joyful and life-giving engagement. Offerman readily agrees, expressing his love for puzzles in general, from jigsaw puzzles to word games. He shares his and his wife Megan Mullally’s enjoyment of the New York Times Spelling Bee, illustrating their shared intellectual curiosity and playful competition.
He reflects on aging and the shift from physical pursuits to those that engage his mind. As his body experiences the effects of time, he finds increasing value in activities that keep him curious and mentally stimulated. He describes jigsaw puzzles and audiobooks as a way to connect with his wife and avoid boredom and resentment. He even details their “stress-free edition” of doing two puzzles simultaneously while listening to audiobooks, highlighting the joy and connection they find in shared, engaging activities. This illustrates how serving as an engaged and curious individual is a lifelong pursuit, adapting to different stages of life.
Masculinity, Woodworking, and Challenging Stereotypes
Tippett shifts the conversation to Offerman’s public image, particularly his association with “man’s man” masculinity, fueled by his role as Ron Swanson and his woodworking persona. She notes the Men’s Health article that labeled him “synonymous with being a man’s man” and Ezra Klein’s description of his “camp masculinity.” While acknowledging the surface appearance, she points out the seeming contradiction of women running Offerman Woodshop.
Offerman playfully addresses these perceptions, stating he’s a “giggly kid inside this beefy lumberjack.” He observes how fans selectively interpret Ron Swanson’s character, often projecting a stereotypical, pugilistic masculinity onto him. He questions the need to “genderize” activities like woodworking, challenging traditional notions of masculinity. He humorously recounts how his older sister can “wilt” him with a glance, subverting the macho stereotype. This nuanced perspective reveals that Offerman’s embrace of woodworking is not about reinforcing gender stereotypes but about celebrating skill, craft, and challenging narrow definitions of serving as a “man.”
The Importance of Teachers and Curators of Life
Tippett emphasizes the importance of teachers and friendships in Offerman’s life, noting his investment in these relationships and his willingness to learn from others. She quotes his statement from Paddle Your Canoe about teachers preventing us from being “sorry dullards.” This sets the stage for a deeper dive into his relationship with Wendell Berry, a central figure in his “pantheon of curators of life.”
Offerman wholeheartedly affirms Berry’s significance, acknowledging he could speak at length about his influence. He recounts his introduction to Berry’s work through actor Leo Burmester, who gifted him a book of Berry’s short stories. He describes the profound impact these stories had on him, particularly Berry’s reverent portrayal of ordinary people, reminiscent of Offerman’s own family. He becomes visibly emotional recounting this, highlighting the deeply personal connection he felt to Berry’s writing. This connection stems from Berry’s ability to articulate the inherent dignity and value in lives often overlooked, lives like those of Offerman’s family who dedicate themselves to serving as librarians, teachers, farmers, and paramedics in their community.
Reevaluating Roots and Agrarian Sensibility
Offerman explains that reading Berry’s work shifted his perspective on his small-town upbringing. Initially, he felt drawn to the allure of big cities, perhaps seeking to distance himself from the perceived limitations of his conservative hometown. However, Berry’s stories helped him realize the profound value of his roots and the inherent worth of his family and community. He recognized that the “shiny, bright lights and big city” mentality, both literally and figuratively, had led civilization astray, particularly with the advent of the industrial revolution.
He describes Berry’s patient and eloquent critique of this trajectory through his fiction, essays, and poetry. Offerman emphasizes that Berry’s message resonated deeply because his parents had already instilled in him the values that prepared him to receive it. He wrote to Berry, seeking permission to adapt his work, but was initially declined. Despite this, they continued to correspond, and years later, Offerman became involved in a documentary about Berry, Look & See. He humorously recounts Berry’s initial reluctance to appear in the film, reflecting the writer’s private nature. This anecdote highlights the authenticity and integrity that Offerman admires in Berry and strives to emulate in his own life and work, serving as a conduit for these values.
Tippett summarizes this shift as a transition from seeing his upbringing as merely “bucolic” to understanding and valuing its “agrarian sensibility.” She asks Offerman to elaborate on the meaning of this transition. He explains that it signifies a realization of complicity in the modern consumerist lifestyle. He acknowledges that even as he embraces agrarian values, he is still part of a system reliant on technology and consumption. He uses the example of Wendell Berry’s recent book, The Need to Be Whole, which Offerman narrated as an audiobook. He describes the challenge of narrating Berry’s erudite prose while grappling with the inherent contradictions of his own modern life, like driving a car and using air conditioning. This internal conflict underscores the ongoing effort to reconcile his values with the realities of modern living and to continually strive towards serving as a more conscious and responsible individual.
The Berry Stool and Peak Career
Offerman describes his involvement in producing the documentary Look & See, expressing gratitude for being part of it. He mentions a “fun Easter egg” – his hands appear in the film crafting a three-legged stool while Wendell Berry speaks. He proudly identifies this as the “Berry Stool,” jokingly suggesting it might be the pinnacle of his career. This self-deprecating humor underscores his genuine admiration for Berry and the values he represents.
Tippett then asks Offerman to share formative passages from Berry’s writing. He hesitates to overthink it, opting for a more informal approach, likening it to sharing favorite records with a friend. He first recommends Berry’s fiction, suggesting short story collections like Watch With Me and Fidelity. He paints a vivid picture of Berry’s fictional world of Port William, Kentucky, a sprawling, interconnected narrative across novels and short stories. He expresses his aspiration to adapt some of this work, acknowledging Berry’s humorous yet firm stance on waiting until after his death. This illustrates Offerman’s deep respect for Berry’s work and his desire to further serve as a messenger for these important stories.
Manifesto and Nature’s Justice
Offerman shares excerpts from Berry’s poem, “Manifesto: The Mad Farmer Liberation Front,” focusing on lines that resonate with him. He quotes, “Laugh. / Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful / though you have considered all the facts.” and “Be like the fox / who makes more tracks than necessary, / some in the wrong direction.” He interprets these lines as instructions for living, emphasizing the importance of joy even in the face of reality and embracing a less predictable, more creative path. He connects this to Mary Oliver’s similar instruction to “Be joyful / though you have considered all the facts,” highlighting the essential human capacity and responsibility for joy.
He then shares a powerful quote linking Berry to Aldo Leopold: “Whether we, and our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a sterner sense of justice than we do.” He explains how this quote encapsulates the interconnectedness of humanity and nature, echoing Leopold’s ecological perspective. He emphasizes the lesson instilled by his parents – that nature is a force to be reckoned with, and ignoring its laws has consequences. He uses the metaphor of running up a dinner bill, warning of the eventual reckoning when nature presents the tab for environmental irresponsibility. This underscores the importance of serving as responsible stewards of the environment.
Valuing Words and Decency
Tippett shifts to appreciating Offerman’s distinctive use of language, noting his fondness for “meaty,” “delicious” words not commonly heard in casual American conversation. She highlights his use of words like “edifying” and “titillating,” and admires his care in choosing language. She connects this to a potential link between careful language and careful living.
Offerman attributes his linguistic sensibility to the astute observation, noting Wendell Berry’s emphasis on treating language with affection as a prerequisite for respectful communication and action. He references the deceptive language of advertising in Mad Men, contrasting it with the honest beauty of language aligned with nature’s economy.
He traces his love of language back to his librarian aunt who introduced him to The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia, sparking a lifelong passion for reading and storytelling. He recalls experimenting with language among his carpenter friends in Chicago, incorporating striking phrases into his vocabulary. He acknowledges his surprise at becoming an author, expressing his joy in “compiling language and thought” and participating in a larger conversation. He credits his wife, an English major, for her ongoing role in correcting and refining his language, highlighting a student-teacher dynamic in their relationship. He sees language as a skill to be cultivated, resisting its atrophy in modern society, advocating for a flourishing of precise and meaningful communication and serving as a champion for thoughtful language.
Muscular Words and Aspirational Values
Tippett further notes Offerman’s use of “muscular words” like “decency, humility, kindness, generosity, honor, and fidelity,” words that carry significant weight and potential for both hollow and heartfelt use. She points out his self-awareness in acknowledging his aspiration to embody these values, admitting his frequent failures. This humility adds sincerity to his embrace of these virtues.
Offerman emphasizes that these are indeed aspirational values, ones he is grateful to recognize and strive towards. He uses “fidelity” as a prime example, explaining its connection to Wendell Berry’s influence. He clarifies that Berry’s concept of fidelity extends beyond marital faithfulness to encompass loyalty and care for one’s community, including people, animals, and the natural world. He recounts how Berry’s story Fidelity drew him in, highlighting this value as central to his own ethical framework. He acknowledges the challenge of living up to these ideals in his own life, particularly as a “dancing jester” with an itinerant lifestyle, yet he strives to integrate these values into his work and life, serving as a more faithful individual in all his roles.
Evolution of Understanding and the Modern Paradox
Tippett reflects on Offerman’s evolution, from a nature-loving youth to someone with a deepened understanding of humanity’s interconnectedness with the natural world. She notes the shift from being in nature to being of nature, emphasizing the concept of wholeness and interdependence. She sees this trajectory as shared by many, even as the modern world, structured around digital distractions and consumerism, often pulls us away from this understanding. She poses the paradox of living in a world simultaneously awakening to ecological awareness and yet structured to distract from it.
Offerman addresses this paradox by returning to his earlier point about his family’s gardening and his own itinerant lifestyle. He acknowledges the seeming contradiction of advocating for agrarian values while living a life that often necessitates air travel and consumption. However, he finds solace and purpose in Offerman Woodshop, viewing it as his “year-round garden.” He emphasizes his dedication to the health of this “garden,” both in terms of the handcrafted goods produced and the well-being of his employees. He sees the woodshop as a tangible way to contribute and give back, even if it doesn’t generate personal profit. He humorously mentions their recent upgrade from Modelo Especial to Negra Modelo beer for the woodshop crew, illustrating his care for their well-being and the ongoing effort to improve their quality of life, demonstrating how he strives to serve as a responsible employer and community member in his own way.
Gift Making and Expressing Affection
Tippett pivots to the concept of “gift making” as a practice, drawing from Offerman’s earlier mention of it. She asks him to elaborate on this idea. Offerman connects gift-making to resisting consumerism, using the example of making a handmade card instead of buying a generic store-bought one. He emphasizes the greater value of a handmade gift, signifying not just love but also the investment of time and personal effort.
He shares an anecdote about leaving small, impromptu gifts for his wife, Megan Mullally, like hearts made from found litter placed on her car. He highlights the simple yet meaningful gesture of expressing affection through handmade gifts, contrasting it with the consumerist expectation of buying expressions of love. He sees gift-making as a way to communicate care and connection in a more authentic and personal way, serving as a thoughtful and affectionate partner.
Living the Questions
Tippett introduces the Rilkean concept of “living the questions,” emphasizing its relevance in a time lacking shared answers. She describes Rilke’s idea of loving questions themselves and resisting the urge to rush to answers, instead embracing the process of dwelling in uncertainty. She asks Offerman what question he is currently living and would want to live alongside others.
Offerman acknowledges the magnitude of the question and identifies his guiding question as: “how can I come as close as possible to getting it right?” He clarifies that “getting it right” is not about wealth accumulation, having learned that material pursuits are not the path to fulfillment. He values simpler pleasures and meaningful experiences over expensive possessions.
He describes his personal mantra of checking in with his relationships, prioritizing his wife, family, friends, and woodshop employees. He uses this framework to assess his actions and intentions, constantly asking himself, “Am I getting any closer to getting it right?” This ongoing self-reflection and commitment to ethical living represent his personal approach to serving as a better human being, continually striving for improvement and deeper understanding.
Ethical Behavior and Aldo Leopold’s Admonition
Tippett concludes by referencing Aldo Leopold and his quote shared by ornithologist Drew Lanham: “To be one of those who cannot live without wild things, keep all the parts, listen to the mountain and preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community.” She notes that Offerman also quotes Leopold in Where the Deer and the Antelope Play, specifically at the very end of the book: “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching — even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” She asks about his choice to place this quote at the book’s conclusion and its significance to him.
Offerman explains his intention in placing the Leopold quote at the very end, wanting readers to leave with this thought. He underscores the quote’s timeless relevance, particularly in a modern society that often encourages ignoring ethical considerations in pursuit of convenience or profit. He emphasizes the enduring importance of ethical behavior, even when unseen and even when legality permits otherwise. He sees this quote as a final reminder and a call to action, urging readers to embrace a deeper sense of personal responsibility and to continually strive towards ethical conduct in all aspects of life, serving as conscientious individuals guided by integrity.
Offerman’s book “Paddle Your Own Canoe” reflects his self-reliance and practical wisdom.
This expanded exploration of Nick Offerman’s interview reveals a man deeply committed to craftsmanship, ethical living, and a lifelong pursuit of learning and meaning. His insights offer valuable lessons for navigating a complex world, reminding us of the importance of purpose-driven work, genuine connection, and serving as responsible and engaged members of our communities and the natural world.
